chances are, the guy who killed you with links would've probably killed you without them too

Or find someone who is willing to follow you around in a OGB. It is an MMO after all.

still whining over an extra 15 dollars? lol

Links exist because so many people need as much advantage as possible fighting. CCP knows this and recognizes a cash cow. Many /l33t pvp pilots have their own OGB links alt. That is one more subscription for CCP.

So if you think CCP will kill a cash cow...think again.

this is a game of alts. the p2w is real.

but links are still the worst. the multiple account elites can keep their economic monopolies and their army of farming procurers. just let us the real players have real pvp that doesn't involve a p2w i-win button cloaked up off grid.

15 bucks aint a big deal

but its 15 bucks a month over the course of many months and eventually years, plus the plex you need to pay for the t3 or the hours of grinding to make isk to pay for it. ccp is rolling in the cash. you have to ask yourself if they even plan on doing anything about this or if they just plan on ignoring it and pretend it isnt there while of course graciously accepting the cash for it. if so we might have to start whining a little bit louder.

this is a problem that is worth discussing.

misguided posters like abannans forum alt can downplay the problem of links as much as they want, but it doesnt matter because were here to spread the truth.

The other game I play online is chess. Often you need to pay a subscription to play online chess. I guess the same reasoning would go that if you don't pay an extra $15 a month you will have to play without one knight. I guess that would be a way to squeeze your customers, if people would actually put up with it. So far most chess websites have realized chess players won't put up with that. But then again chess players are notoriously cheap.

Intelligible? At least the words I type have capitalization where needed and correct punctuation. Now you'll probably reply with some crap that you posted from your phone.

The bottomline is this is EVE. It's a cold, harsh, universe. Some people know how to deal with OGBs, and some don't. You are probably in the latter. Adapt, die, or GTFO.

I would like to advocate for the removal of off grid link whiners.It's old, it's boring, it's all been said before.

Maybe you could all toddle off to Minecraft, get a server together and make a new axe to grind.

@ Cearain

How on earth can you interpret my post as defending anything?
I was simply expressing that I'm over reading the same old gripes from the same old people in the same old threads.
However I will concede that it was definitely a shiptoast of questionable quality. I would however like to point out that it takes a shiptoaster to know a shiptoaster.



@ Demerius

Dago has >100m SP - he has plenty of uses - links are just one of his many talents.
So, no plans to unsub him and no you can't have my stuffz. You couldn't handle my stuffz.
How you going anyways man? Last time I saw you mooching around Okkamon you were travelling with a T3 links ship. What is it they say about glass houses and stones?

But you will also not have them on that day - So you will still get dunked.

Either way - Your tears will continue to flow.


What will you cry about next?? ECM?? Logi?? Fleets??

Honestly though i cannot think of a single fight bar one in the last six months that i directly lost because my opponent was linked.

Special fits. Also, i didnt exactly obliterate them either. Just harass.
Links just make more options viable.

Do you think it should not be possible to fight outnumbered?

I never said that people can fight links without links or probes. I never spoke to that at all.

I said that if people feel that they cannot fight linked pilots then they can use probes instead. Most of the time the booster is a more expensive kill anyway.

Whats the word for calling someone a hypocrite based on something they never said?


The main problem i will encounter without links, is the plex mechanics themselves. I use links to clear scrams on the warp in. I will warp in to most things and have a go.

Without links i will simply see a gang in a plex and have to go to a different plex and either wait for them to leave and undo the contested rate they accrued by completing my own plex or wait for them to warp in to me.

Also, im not saying that without links its impossible to breach a plex in a kite ship. Im just saying its probably not worth testing it most of the time only to give away effortless kills to a blob at zero on the warp in.

Eve was kill when i could no longer dunk on Noobs with 7k garmur in novice plex

It just encourages the N+1 blob mechanic. If you think that its going to fix anything, it is really only going to make eve worse.

You'd think after the limited information we are getting about Capitals - and how "Fozzie Sov" was a complete flop - which led to subscription account decrease - that they would take a pause before considering what the hell to do.


Yes links suck, but they enable these things to happen:

1.) Engagement against higher numbers.
2.) In FW - ability to engage in scenarios you would otherwise run away from.
3.) Incursions
4.) WH Space PVE

Ways you can counter links:
1.) Invest skill points on probing. Often times, the link ship is a more successful and juicy kill.
2.) Bring your own link ship.
3.) Tornado
4.) Many more ways!


WHY this change is stupid

1.) HELLO FALCON AND ROOK. You thought dealing with link alts were bad, wait till you see my x2 falcons/rooks.

2.) Why give "content" when I know that your blob of N+1 is greater than mine? Why fight when I know you can guard your links more. This encourages the Goonswarm 5 to 1 mentality.

3.) Well, RIP to WH fun. Already such a dwindling population, and with the new changes...not even worth the effort.

The only crying here is from you m8, rest of us are too busy making arguments.

Also NOT using neut/ecm ships on someone makes that someone not a good pilot? Much reasoning, such logic, wow.

Don't worry. People will be complaining about T3Ds and T2 Frig Logi in a few weeks. Both of which can easily fit cruiser ABs and still be viable.

I still remember when I was a noon and when I was getting better without links and when I was finally decent without links.

The one thing that kept me in the game was joining a player Corp in FW. I am a 20p8 player that took a 4 year break because I never got engaged with the player base beyond getting dunked because I had no clue what I was doing.

I will readily admit that the SP gap between new and older payers can be and is a big turn off. There is a reason my newer alt does not do much beyond probe and train skills. With that being said, the SP gap is not in my opinion the biggest gap. The biggest gap is the skill aspect in the pilot themselves. There is a steep learning curve to transitioning from scrub level noob to decent pilot. The faster you progress that the easier and more enjoyable the game becomes. The only way to accelerate that learning curve is to get engaged with the player base and go fly with reckless abandon. No amount of off grid vs on grid vs with vs without links will change that ever.

The game needs a player driven solution to attract and retain newer players while they progress the learning curve. Until that improves nothing will change except the gap between new and old players.

Yes, CCP say your possible solution to having links far away on a huge grid by explaining that they will most likely work inside a small AOE. RIP skirmish gangs (apart from with t2 dessy pending details)

Not to mention that trying to have on-grid-boosts away from fleet not only makes a mockery of the whole concept for these changes but it will simply be too vulnerable to death squads of 3rd parties who can simply harass boosters 5000km away from he fight.

All the proposed changes and new ships have the potential to be an utter mess when combined together in anything but small scale fights. You argue for a deeper strategy, but i would suggest that what you will get is unpredictable uncertainty instead.

Boosts are not god mode.

Also, i do not have an alt, i have a friend that i fly with some time. I hope this alleviates your concerns.

The SP gap is a myth. If you train a ship to mastery 5, and you are facing an opponent with similar ship, then you are both on an equal footing barring how you fit, how you fly, drugs, implants, and possible OBG.

The OBG can be mitigated by making sure there are none on dscan.

This highligts your bias. It entirely depends on what you are fighting. Nano engagement envelope shrinks quite significantly without links so a blanket statement like this shows you have no interest in a conersation.

And a 30% boost is god mode? How can you prove your own notion incorrect in a single paragraph and not notice? And sure, if my friend just needs to fly alone to resolve one of the main (but purile) argument, that can be arranged lol.

How do you know if im sleeping? That seems an awfully intrusive standard to balance a game with.

Any proviso in a discussion about game balance that has 'Your friend must play while you are sleeping' in it, is already so convoluted and unwieldy as to be hilariously broken.

Personally, it doesnt matter to me if someone has alts. I tend to not fixate on individual players game choices. I just see the pixels in space and deal with them the best i can.

And a 30% boost is actually just a 30% boost. God mode is something much different. If you want to use extreme rhetoric to inflate the problem and express how upset boosts make you, then feel free. But it doesnt help your case.

Boosts are very powerful if used correctly. They can also be meaningless when used with no thought. They can also be expensive losses if used carelessly or without attention.

Luckily, i have a friend who flies off grid links for me so some of your major arguments are mute in my case.

If your only solution is to bring your own, then you are ignoring a few other solutions.

I wonder why noone complains about the racials bonus of titans.. And only small pvp group and FW stuff!

Because old players dont whine like this new players that do FW and want to solo PVP. Simple has that! Yeah i dont like link either.. but deal with it!

Maybe giving link only to T2 cruiser or higher would be the best idea. That way no links for a 50mil ship being boosted by a 1b ship!

And the logic of bringing a T3 link on grid, with no weapons no tank just link! Really amazes me by the negative...

Like you forcing a non-combat ship to the grid, hopping for a juice kill mail! Say it all! Same skill level of ganking mining bardes and indis! You ask for a fair fight... What is fair in fighting a ship with no guns no tank!

Just remove link for small size hauls. And from T1 medium hauls! For me it's perfectly clear that CCP didn't think of the role of a T3 boosting. Most of big fleet compus that use link use it already on grid with command ships! If they used off-grid link im 99% sure CCP wouldn't do a think because thoose are the real dollars! Not small FW crying babies!


Not to meantion that most people that pvp in low sec, and do FW don't pvp in Null because "they dont like bubbles"... all said!

With good planning and lots of alpha. Sure.

Honestly you are whining more than just about anyone I know. If you are willing to back up that whine I have a proposal.

Ten arranged 1 v 1 fights between you and me. You pick the hull classes you want to fight with. I will place 1 billion isk on it that I win 7 or more of our fights.

My only ground rules are:
1) no links and we must be in in the same fleet with just us two
2) we use a Gall Mill controlled station system so you can reship
3) T2 and meta fittings only...no faction, ded, or officer
4) no implants because I will pod you
5) BS hulls and down
6) we each must front the 1 billion to be held by a 3rd party before the first fight begins
7) spectators welcome as long as they don't interfere....interference means the fight is voided and does not count toward the 10


What say you?

Burt

That argument is not really valid when:


I can haul 100% more items if I also use an alt than I can with only my main.

I can add 100% more dps to a fight by using an alt and have 100% more to tank on field.






So the truth is - links are actually 70% underpowered for the investment.

What was really sad is that if they had just parked a Command Ship on the undock, they would have gotten a better return. Command ships can do the same role and still have tank. Start taking a hit, dock up.

Links on grid will be cool. Especially since grid is now 8000km. Still gonna need those probers.

What is the distance from the plex acc gate to the beacon? about 10,000km?

I will pay the 1 bln for you if you lose. You can keep the prize if you win.
As its my ISK on the line, I will agree upon 3rd party with Burt.

Only thing I am asking is to be able to take part as a visitor. What say you?

I like my scram range active armor tanking. Without links, doing that against multiple opponents would be suicide every time.....rather than just suicide every other time.

With the way the game has changed the last few years, active armor tanking has taken a decidedly big nosedive in performance.

- Links were nerfed
- ASBs were introduced which make armor much less attractive
- Resist bonuses on hulls were nerfed
- Armor rep amount bonuses went from 10% per level to 7.5%
- The dps on practically everything got buffed

The last one is the big one. Weapon damage increased, fitting requirements were reduced, ships got increased fittings.......certain ships got application bonuses, some got drones or additional drones....some cruisers got an additional mid that's often another web for better application......we have new launchers specialized in burst dps....

Ships do more damage and apply it better than they did just a few years ago. At the same time the maximum dps that can be tanked has gone down.

A lot of people don't like links, but they make the impossible possible.

I'm a dirty rotten link user. I fight in scram range with a beefy armor tank, that's my style. I hide the links, and then sit a plex in a non-meta ship and wait for the meta tryhards to show up. I call it "fishing".

Waiting in a plex in a decloaked astero, killing the daredevil that comes in and his backup.........good times.

If a solo pilot comes in, and then no backup arrives I'M SHOCKED. It may not be a fair fight because of the links, but I'm usually in something they think they can take. If I had been in a worm or something, I probably wouldn't get as many customers because who on earth is going to go in on X badass ship that's already setup in the plex?

Over the years I've seen a lot of butthurt aimed in my direction. "you only won because of the links"

Yeah well I wouldn't have fought 3 thrashers in a vengeance without them. I wouldn't have fought a dramiel in a punisher. I wouldn't have fought 5 AFs in an astero. I wouldn't have fought a cynabal in a punisher.

I'd have warped out of the plex when I saw that coming my way and there would have been zero content for anybody. You can't fight outnumbered and outshipped like that in scram range......unless you have links. Solo against many, the only option would be kiting.

It's not fair that our gang couldn't kill the linked guy, boohoo. If this were a game where things like that weren't possible, where the only thing that matters is how many you brought and what they were in......it would be a much duller game.

Access to supercap gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to freighter gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to blackops gameplay should not be defined by how many subs you have.

Access to ... etc

The advantages of alts in eve are diverse and widely accepted. there is no legitimate 'alts to win' argument since if you have an objection to alts you really are playing the wrong game.

Sorry boosters in particular spoil your ability to hunt russian farmer alts in a punisher in peace or that occasionally one might steal a kill from your blob.

There are already mechanics out there if you want fair fights its called a duel.

Ive never expected or felt entitled to a fair fight, in fact i would suggest that the whole point of eve is to engineer a situation where fights are as unfair as possible under the assumption that the opposition will do the same thing. Thats what makes EVE pvp interesting. Not vanilla, rinse / repeat kestrel vs punisher brawls.

Now i understand your thinking that fair fights = most desirable outcome. I would just suggest to you and most other people out there, they are not really the fights you remember. You remember the ones where you engaged hostiles that thought they had it in the bag but pull something extra out to clinch it.

The stories that project to the wider gaming world are not perfectly balanced 1v1s either.

combat pilot + links > combat pilot

But also......

mining pilot + mining pilot > mining pilot

mission pilot + mission pilot > mission pilot

market hub alt + market hub alt > market hub alt

combat pilot + ecm pilot > combat pilot

combat pilot + logi pilot > logi pilot

It goes on forever. I'm pretty sure I never saw an ad for eve online that stated anything like "one account is all you'll ever want/need"

But I guess links were the singular reason for the downfall of solo pvp and he'll not hear anything to the contrary.

edit

This is eve online, the game where players do anything to win. Underhanded tactics have been celebrated for as long as I've played the game.

If not links, it'll be logi alts or ecm alts or whatever else creative players come up with. A lot of people do stuff like that, and the logi alts even make kills look like they were solo. Is it dirty? Yeah. Is it unfair? Yes.

Even if ccp put in some ******* karma score to reward players for being honest, it would be the mission of the majority of players to accrue as negative a karma score as possible because that's just our nature.

The loss of offgrid links would just cause people to adapt. Then people would ***** about whatever "underhanded" thing replaced them. CCPLZ no more than one logistics ship allowed on any given grid. CCPLZ delete all ecm drones/ships. CCPLZ give me a box in options menu so that only one other ship can ever be on grid with me.

Lol no, especially in low sec where ppl never go more than 2 jumps away their staging. D A N K refitting is so hard.

Because this would involve effort. Whining on forum not that much.

rapier + keres, any decent gang has one of those (at least I often do)

The first one seems to be useful in a few situations, one of which is what you consider the biggest problem in the game.

From one side of your mouth you say that OGB are prolific and ruin gameplay all over new eden, and from the other side you say that a counter to boosts wouldnt be of much use.

I know why boosts make you angry and i know why you dont put effort in to counter them. Both are the same reason, you are lazy and dislike uncertainty. Personally, i have always admired people who put effort in to solve their problems rather than just complain.